Post by CDiehl » Thu Apr 24, pm. Post by Vendetta » Sat Apr 26, pm. Post by Murazor » Sun Apr 27, am. Post by Vaporous » Sun Apr 27, pm. Post by Elaro » Mon Apr 28, am. Post by Balrog » Mon Apr 28, am. Post by Ted C » Mon Apr 28, pm. Post by Next of Kin » Wed Apr 30, pm. Post by Balrog » Wed Apr 30, pm. Privacy Terms. Quick links. Why did Saruman even attack Helm's Deep? Surely, it would have been easier for him to leave a "Small" force to hold the mouth of the valley under siege, and to send the rest of his forces to join the siege of Minas Tirith.
Originally Posted by Andsigil. Saruman showed a lack of sound strategic thinking in terms of simplicity and objective. Last edited by Sarumian; at AM. Fighting the Ent's forces seems like nothign in comparison. But Inziladun supplied a great quote that may hold the answer: 'I don't know what Saruman thought was happening; but anyway he did not know how to deal with it. His wizardry may have been falling off lately, of course; but anyway I think he has not got much grit, not much plain courage alone in a tight place without a lot of slaves and machines and things, if you know what I mean.
Very different from old Gandalf. Originally Posted by Rhod the Red. Saruman wont count the ents in his scheme,because he thinks like this "nah the ents wont do nothing. Originally Posted by Nikkolas. Saruman is perhaps just not suited for combat, lacking the necessary courage or fortitude to expend himself and his essence in a life-threatening manner like Gandalf did. Why did Saruman decide to move all his force into Rohan having lost his control over king Theoden?
Wormtongue didn't actually reach Orthanc with the news until it was too late: Saruman's army had been crushed at the Hornburg the night before, and Isengard was a steaming, flooded wreck.
OTOH, an unpublished time-scheme indicates that Saruman was notified by his bird-spies of the riding of several eoreds from Edoras westward which, one might presume, he assumed like Ceorl did to be led by Eomer or some other marshal It seems his motivation, as I read it, was to overwhelm Elfhelm and Grimbold before they could be reinforced, and to destroy Rohan's army in detail. Thread Tools. All times are GMT The time now is AM.
Some of the trees they just cut down and leave to rot There is always a smoke rising from Isengard these days. I have been idle. I have let things slip. A thing is about to happen which has not happened since the Elder Days: the Ents are going to wake up and find that they are strong. There they were welcomed Their torches could be seen winding up the coomb Suddenly from the Dike Flaming brands Then they scattered and vanished.
Men came galloping back The rearguard of the Westfolders had been driven in. Suddenly the clouds were seared by a blinding flash For a staring moment the watchers on the walls saw all the space between them and the Dike lit with white light: it was boiling and crawling with black shapes Hundreds and hundreds more were pouring over the Dike and through the breach. The dark tide flowed up to the walls from cliff to cliff Arrows thick as the rain came whistling over the battlements, and fell clinking and glancing on the stones.
Some found a mark. The assault on Helm's Deep had begun The assailing hosts halted, foiled by the silent menace of rock and wall.
Ever and again the lightning tore aside the darkness. Then the Orcs screamed, waving spear and sword, and shooting a cloud of arrows at any that stood revealed upon the battlements; and the men of the Mark amazed looked out, as it seemed to them, upon a great field of dark corn, tossed by a tempest of war Brazen trumpets sounded. The enemy surged forward, some against the Deeping Wall , other towards the causeway and the ramp that led up to the Hornburg-gates They reached the summit of the rock ; they drove towards the gates.
Then at last an answer came: a storm of arrows met them, and a hail of stones. They wavered, broke, and fled back; and then charged again, broke and charged again; and each time, like the incoming sea, they halted at a higher point. The archway of the gate But even as the gate fell, and the Orcs about it yelled, preparing to charge, a murmur arose behind them The Orcs upon the Rock , hearing the rumour of dismay, wavered and looked back.
And then, sudden and terrible, from the tower above, the sound of the great horn of Helm rang out Down from the gates they roared, over the causeway they swept, and they drove through the hosts of Isengard Behind them from the Deep came the stern cries of men issuing from the caves , driving forth the enemy Their backs were to the swords and spears of the Riders and their faces to the valley.
They cried and wailed, for fear and great wonder had come upon them with the rising of the day. There the company halted The land had changed Great trees , bare and silent, stood, rank on rank Darkness was under them. Between the Dike and the eaves of that nameless wood only two open furlongs lay.
There now cowered the proud hosts of Saruman, in terror of the king and in terror of the trees Vainly they There suddenly upon a ridge appeared a rider , clad in white, shining in the rising sun. Over the low hills the horns were sounding. Behind him, hastening down the long slopes , were a thousand men on foot; their swords were in their hands. Amid them strode a man tall and strong The hosts of Isengard roared, swaying Down through the breach of the Dike charged the king's company.
Down from the hills leaped Erkenbrand, lord of Westfold. Down leaped Shadowfax The White Rider was upon them, and the terror of his coming filled the enemy with madness. The wild men fell on their faces before him. The Orcs reeled and screamed and cast aside both sword and spear Wailing they passed under the waiting shadow of the trees; and from that shadow none ever came again. There was no answer Not from the Huorns Saruman fled in a panic He leapt down the path from the inner gate Suddenly up came fires and foul fumes Several of the Ents got scorched and blistered They roared I saw iron posts and blocks of masonry go rocketing up hundreds of feet, and smash against the windows of Orthanc There was a great shadowy wood of Huorns at the head of the valley Ents and Huorns were digging great pits and trenches, and making great pools and dams, gathering all the waters of the Isen and every other spring and stream that they could find Every now and then the waters found their way down into some shaft or spouthole.
Great white steams hissed up There were explosions and gusts of fire. One great coil of vapour went whirling up, twisting round and round Orthanc And still more water poured in, until at last Isengard looked like a huge flat saucepan, all steaming and bubbling. There is someone in the tower still: a hand came out and pulled him in. So there he is, and I hope the welcome is to his liking. Dangerous, and probably useless; but it must be done. Those of you who wish may come with me — but beware!
They waited. Suddenly another voice spoke, low and melodious, its very sound an enchantment. Those who listened unwarily to that voice could seldom report the words that they heard; and if they did, they wondered, for little power remained in them.
Mostly they remembered only that it was a delight to hear the voice speaking, all that it said seemed wise and reasonable, and desire awoke in them by swift agreement to seem wise themselves. When others spoke they seemed harsh and uncouth by contrast Will you give me no peace at all by night or day? O worthy son of Thengel the Thrice-renowned! Why have you not come before, and as a friend? Much have I desired to see you, mightiest king of western lands, and especially in these latter years, to save you from the unwise and evil counsels that beset you!
Is it yet too late? Despite the injuries that have been done to me, in which the men of Rohan, alas! Indeed I alone can aid you now. Gandalf made no sign The Riders stirred at first, murmuring with approval of the words of Saruman; and then they too were silent, as men spell-bound It was Gimli the dwarf who broke in suddenly Will you have peace with me, and all the aid that my knowledge, founded in long years, can bring?
Whether he strove with anger or doubt none could say Have we ridden forth to victory, only to stand at last amazed by an old liar with honey on his forked tongue? What aid can he give to you, forsooth? But will you parley with this dealer in treachery and murder? Meddle not in policies which you do not understand. But maybe, if you become a king, you will find that he must choose his friends with care.
The friendship of Saruman and the power of Orthanc cannot be lightly thrown aside, whatever grievances, real or fancied, may lie behind If you go to war, needlessly, for I did not desire it, then men will be slain. But if I am a murderer on that account, then all the House of Eorl is stained with murder; for they have fought many wars Yet with some they have afterwards made peace It is ours to command.
Several of the Riders cried out gladly You are a liar, Saruman, and a corrupter of men's hearts. You hold out your hand to me, and I perceive only a finger of the claw of Mordor Even if your war on me was just as it was not When you hang from a gibbet at your window for the sport of your own crows , I will have peace with you and Orthanc Turn elsewhither.
But I fear your voice has lost its charm. Even now will you not listen to my counsel? Are we not both members of a high and ancient order , most excellent in Middle-earth? Our friendship would profit us both alike Let us understand one another, and dismiss from thought these lesser folk! For the common good I am willing to redress the past, and to receive you.
Will you not consult with me? Will you not come up? You should have been the king's jester and earned your bread, and stripes too, by mimicking his counsellors.
Ah me! I fear I am beyond your comprehension. But you, Saruman, I understand now too well. I keep a clearer memory of your arguments, and deeds, than you suppose. When last I visited you, you were the jailor of Mordor , and there I was to be sent. Nay, the guest who has escaped from the roof, will think twice before he comes back in by the door. Nay, I do not think I will come up. But listen, Saruman , for the last time! Will you not come down? Isengard has proved less strong than your hope and fancy made it.
So may other things in which you still have trust. Would it not be well to leave it for a while? To turn to new things, perhaps? Think well, Saruman! For a second he hesitated, and no one breathed.
Then he spoke, and his voice was shrill and cold. Pride and hate were conquering him. And is not that strange? Nothing that we have endured of late has seemed so grievous as the treason of Isengard.
Even reckoned as a lord and captain Saruman has grown very strong. He threatens the Men of Rohan and draws off their help from Minas Tirith, even as the main blow is approaching from the East. Yet a treacherous weapon is ever a danger to the hand. Saruman also had a mind to capture the Ring, for himself, or at least to snare some hobbits for his evil purposes. So between them our enemies have contrived only to bring Merry and Pippin with marvellous speed, and in the nick of time, to Fangorn, where otherwise they would never have come at all!
No tidings of the battle will come to Mordor, thanks to the horsemen of Rohan; but the Dark Lord knows that two hobbits were taken in the Emyn Muil and borne away towards Isengard against the will of his own servants. He now has Isengard to fear as well as Minas Tirith. If Minas Tirith falls, it will go ill with Saruman. That he will never do now.
He does not yet know his peril. There is much that he does not know. He was so eager to lay his hands on his prey that he could not wait at home, and he came forth to meet and to spy on his messengers. But he came too late, for once, and the battle was over and beyond his help before he reached these parts.
He did not remain here long. I look into his mind and I see his doubt. He has no woodcraft. He believes that the horsemen slew and burned all upon the field of battle; but he does not know whether the Orcs were bringing any prisoners or not.
And he does not know of the quarrel between his servants and the Orcs of Mordor [i. So by this point in time, Saruman's politics is clearly devised to get the ring in his possession as soon as possible and he is willing to risk Sauron noticing his betrayal of their alliance for that purpose.
That renders the "Saruman invaded Rohan on Sauron's orders" theory somewhat problematic. Maybe in the mind of Saruman obeying the orders of the Dark Tower now may prevent the latter from ever noticing his betrayal?
If Sauron is aware of his betrayal -as we, the reader, know he is- he may be more forgiving later if Saruman now resumes the alliance in a more loyal way?
So he has to take into account a scenario where the Ring is in the Rohan area. In that case, his immediate worst-case scenario is: the Ring getting in Saruman's hands Saruman being the most powerful individual in that area in terms of possibly being able to master the Ring and Saruman claiming the Ring and mounting a challenge against Mordor. So his best strategy seems to order Saruman to refrain from aggression against Rohan in order to minimize the latter's chances to obtain the Ring.
One could also speculate that Saruman is in fact calculating that his feigned 'alliance' with Sauron offers no more hopes for him and he is desperately continuing his policy of obtaining the Ring for himself.
By this time he has to resort to wild guesses about the Ring's whereabouts and, as his expedition force was destroyed by horsemen and he found no hobbit-bodies on the battle-field, he draws the following conclusions:. So let me proceed by betting they did carry some loot.
Searching for the Ring in Rohan via Wormtongue's manipulation of the king or by force is therefore my best hope to secure victory after all. Saruman's goose was cooked at this point and he knew it. His invasion was a last ditch attempt to seize the ring for himself. It's hard to give a definitive answer because Tolkien rarely gives us a direct insight into the thinking of the enemy.
Just about everything we know is something the hobbits saw, that they could have learned from Gandalf, Elrond, etc. However, we do know that Sauron did not trust Saruman; otherwise why send Grishnakh across the Anduin? Grishnakh confirms this himself:. Who does he [Saruman] think he is, setting up on his own with his filthy white badges? They might agree with me, with Grishnakh their trusted messenger; and I Grishnakh say this: Saruman is a fool, and a dirty treacherous fool.
But the Great Eye is on him. Gandalf urges an attack on Dol Guldur.
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